What is the first thing that comes to mind when you think of witches? Not just one thing, but very vivid images: be it the demonic Sabbaths, the tortures of Salem and the pages of a history book, or the dozens of depictions that literature and films have offered over the years.
In the documentary Witches, director Elizabeth Sankey mentions many of them, showing how much and how the figure of the witch has entered the Western collective consciousness, often in its negative and evil sense. Despite the fact that its greatest meaning is that of the (irrepressible) power of the feminine nature.
Sankey draws a parallel between this boundless strength, which does not move according to the masculine rules of the world, and mental illness. She recounts her own experiences of post-partum depression, psychiatric hospitalisation and, above all, her encounter with other women in similar situations. A community (and a coven) able to support each other in a world that hardly accepts the psychological difficulties of motherhood and forces women into only one ideal model of motherhood: absolute sacrifice.
The result of this reflection on motherhood is Witches (streaming worldwide from November 22 on MUBI). A documentary that also has a little bit of Italy in its personal coven behind the camera, as the director points out in our interview. Indeed one of the main producers is Chiara Ventura while Chiara Cabri did the sound mix: «Two women that I care about very much. They’ve been so instrumental and so brilliant. I just wanted to highlight their work as two brilliant Italian women».
Interview with Elizabeth Sankey
The witch as a symbol has never gone away. But now, especially in pop culture, in films and TV series, it is even more present. Is this a coincidence or a necessity in the face of repeated attacks on women’s bodies and lives?
I think that the archetype of the witch is always really powerful and meaningful both as a way to attempt, by the patriarchy, to control women but also as a sort of symbol of empowerment and potency for the majority of women. The witch definitely arises whenever we need her and I think right now we really need her, so I’m not surprised that there’s more of witch stories in popular culture at the moment. And it’s really great to see it. Also since the American elections I definitely feel people have been responding to Witches in a more charged way. Maybe because there is this feeling that women’s rights are gradually being stripped away. And a film like ours hopefully will sort of give women a way to think about that and discuss that and feel that in a safe space.
Speaking of American elections, I think you have heard about the rising of the 4B feminist movement (no childbirth, no marriage, no sex and no dating with men). Can we consider it sort of a modern coven? And do you think it could really help against male violence or control?
I will always think about things in terms of cinema and in terms of popular culture but I think it’s a response as well to the very limited depictions of different types of women that we see. We don’t see women who are childfree or childless in an older age, we don’t see what life looks like for those women, and I bet it looks pretty great. We don’t see what it’s like to live in a world where you’re not concerned about dating and marriage.
And it’s how i felt making Witches as well as I was trying to find different ways to be a mother that rejected the sort of patriarchal pressure to be a good mother. F*ck being a good mother, I don’t care about that. I just want to be, I want to find my own way to do it. And for me that was kind of taking on this sort of witchy identity that really worked for me. I can also see something similar with other mothers, this kind of rejection of that ideal of how women should behave in society. So yes, I definitely think there’s a kind of coven aspect to that movement and to the feeling – as well – of not being safe around men or not being safe in some environments. And that men don’t care or some other women don’t care as well, which is tragic.
So by associating witches and maternal mental health you have highlighted the lack of models for motherhood, of course. But in your opinion why do we still have difficulties to separate the social from the personal aspects of motherhood? Just think of the abortion issues all over Western countries.
I think that there’s always been an attempt to control women’s bodies. Patriarchy has always wanted to control our bodies, deciding who gets to have children. In the past it was a matter of inheritance and ownership, for example, but it was also a matter of money. And it still is. A lot of money are made out of controlling women’s bodies and out of making us think that we need to be thin and stay young forever. Or [we need] to be mothers.
It’s like when the male medical profession started taking over from midwives: that was because men had realized they could make money out of this job. Previously women weren’t or if they were making money it wasn’t a lot. Men got rid those women so yes, I think there’s a big economic aspect but also just a big fear of the fact that we can do this, we can grow human beings inside us and it doesn’t really fit with a world that has been created by men.
That was one of the things I really felt when I was ill. I was like: Oh this world has been completely constructed by men, by the patriarchy. And then there are women who are literally growing human beings inside their bodies but men cannot control that. They can try to control that but it’s something that they cannot do and it must drive them – on some level as a group – absolutely mad.
And you talk about all that in Witches. You also say in your movie that we must “Embrace the witch, because there is beauty and power within darkness”. How do you think we can embrace the witch and how do you translate it in everyday life?
From making the film and looking back historically at the way that women have been considered in society, I think one of the reasons that the witch trials are so fascinating is because it’s the only documentation we have of how women lived in the 16th century. I realized that shame and guilt have been such a thing for those women. And for me that shame and that guilt had always been there. But it wasn’t until I got ill that I realized how much they were actually affecting me.
I was so ashamed and guilty about the feelings I was having that I was close to ending my own life. And that’s what these women were feeling too, or at least some women, some witches, were feeling back then. That’s when I realized the urgency of trying to tell women – as much as I can and as loudly as possible – that no woman is the only one who’s feeling that. And that if they stop feeling the shame and the guilt it would be such a relief. It would be so much more empowering, such a simple but radical way to find self-acceptance in society and to change the world around us.
I think that’s what I hope women will take from Witches. If it connects with them, I hope that they will share it and they will show it to their friends. Maybe it will work as a resource if they have the same illnesses. But it also could work for all women, it could make them realize how much shame and guilt have an impact on their lives and on their mental health. And they don’t need it. It has nothing to do with themselves.
Read also: “La Strega risorge ogni volta che abbiamo bisogno di lei” – Intervista alla regista Elizabeth Sankey (Italian translation) and Witches review.
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